The Crisis Plan: How Sara Pantaleo Kept La Porchetta Alive

Talking about family. We were like a family. Eight shareholders. Agreeing on something is a nightmare if you go down the path of selling, sell. Welcome to My Shout, the podcast where we have candid conversations about family business transition. Today's guest is Sara Pantaleo, family business adviser and former CEO of La Porchetta. We talk about what it's like to grow up as the only female child in a traditional Italian family, becoming CEO of the family business, and the challenges and advantages that brings when guiding a multifamily enterprise through the uncertainty of their founder's passing.

Sara, thanks for coming in, mate. It's good to see you. Yeah, thank you very much for having me - here. - So I, I did my best. Okay. You said you were after Cab Sav, so did a bit of research and I'm, obviously at the end of the show, I'll talk a little bit more about it, but this is from the Clare Valley and I hope you're gonna enjoy it. Nice. Been there. Yeah, Well, let's air it. Oops. I'm spilling - it everywhere. - That's okay. It's, it's okay.

I don't expect you to be a sommelier, so it's all good. If we're at home, we can do whatever we like. Yeah. We're not in a re, we're not in a restaurant. Geez. Hmm, I - like it. - Yeah. Oh, very nice. So as I said, thanks for coming. I won't dwell a whole bunch on your early life 'cause I'm really interested to get to the part where you take over. But just for the, I guess the benefit of the audience, you know, you moved to Australia in, was it 1977? - Yeah, that's right. - Yeah.

And, so I guess you, you and your brother are in two different worlds. He's, you know, big brother earning a crust, running a business, you're going to school and uni, and then really successful career in IT, service management and, and working at the NAB and what have you. 1996 rolls around and you decide to join La Porchetta, the, let's quote, family business. What were you doing at the time? Like what did you come into the business to do and, and what was that relationship like with, - with Rocky? - Yeah, so is a bit of background.

Anyone that's listening to this and is of background, Italian of my ilk will understand that in an Italian Catholic family like mine, the boys got to do whatever they wanted. And I joke about this where I say, you know, my brothers got coffee in bed and I got to wash the cups. And it's not a joke, but it's just, it is what it is. It's no problem with it. But my brother was 10 years and my senior and my father had passed away when I was eight.

And so in our culture, the eldest son becomes the patriarch. So anyway, so my brother was off working and he always had passion to own his own business. And when him and his partner, his co-founder Felice, was 20 years his senior, they were working part-time at La Porchetta in North Carlton. And so they bought it and turned it into a full restaurant. Now, along the way, my brother never wanted me to work in his business as a waitress, even when it was a restaurant because of our Catholic upbringing.

In those days, you would understand it's different context to today. Today we'd be horrified. There was a lot of sexual harassment, but I only understood in 1996, he just asked me, oh, isn't it time you have kids? I'd been married for about nine years. I, in the Italian culture as well, you get married it first, you are young, when are you gonna get married? Then you get married, when are you gonna have kids? And I, they stopped asking me because I was more career-minded and I'd been married for nine years and didn't have any kids.

He goes, isn't it time? Come and help me set up the computer system. I'm opening up a distribution. Anyway, it turned out I did set up the computer system, but it turned out I started running the logistics for the company. So I actually started running this distribution company. And now keep imagining that I'm in ops, IT, in a corporate and I'm in my, I'm 30 at this point. And yeah, I know it's scary. I don't look that old, hopefully. But anyway, and you can just imagine me, my corporate culture career, very different to my family.

They, everything's casual with Italians, right? And and these restaurateurs are very relaxed about everything. And I'm like, okay, no, we've gotta do it this way. We've gotta add a procedure. And we've got, and my brother's gone. So in those days, it was all cash. Everything was cash. And so even the computer, there wasn't no computer, so you had to do a little docket. So you had to put a little docket whenever. So if someone ordered, you wrote the order, and then you went to the kitchen and put a docket, you, I'm thinking, oh my goodness, this is a nightmare.

We need more efficiency. So I was the instigator to bringing in point of sale, but in the early stages, I was just running the distribution centre to send all the food to all the restaurants and set up the computer system, automated the inventory and all of that. But it turned out it became head office. It turned out that I became the administration manager, per se, without being a title. You know, these, it wasn't that many titles and that's how I got there. But as family businesses do, you get stuck.

Yeah. Fair enough. So at that stage, given your brother's significantly older and he's the founder and the whatever of the business, were you still little sister helping big brother out? Or was it - different? - So yeah, so, so Felice and him were co-founders. They were running Carlton. But at that point, Felice was sort of running Carlton and my brother had, they had 12 restaurants at the time. Rocky was recruiting and going off, he'd ring me, he'd be on the road. So now I get a lot of, can we swear in the show?

Yeah. I get a lot of shit done. Right. So you ring me with something, I can get it done. So my brother would ring me, he goes, and he was my older brother. It's, you gotta do this. And he had a very autocratic style of leadership. Let's not sugarcoat it. Right. And I was his youngest sister. I have to do whatever he says. So anyways, so I'd do it, he'll ring me three days later 'cause I changed my mind. Don't do it. I go, it's done. Oh.

So then I learned to manage up. So I had to upskill myself to understand what was going on. 'Cause I'm about productivity, efficiency and getting things done, but not wasting time. So he would ring and yeah, no worries. I'd wait three days and then three days later if he still wanted it done, then I would get it done. But he was a huge, he was visionary. Him and his partner had a beautiful relationship where Rocky was, wanted to be the peacock he wanted to be. Felice was happy just doing his thing, dealing with his clients and what have you, didn't wanna be in the forefront.

And what he brought to Melbourne in Italian cuisine, it's quite phenomenal. So he's obviously the driving force behind what is La Porchetta. - Definitely. - What's the menu and how does it perceive you? Definitely, you are carrying the operational logistics and the professionalisation, if you like. Correct. Of the - business. - And starting to put the point of sale system in, productivity, getting them thinking about HR, maybe sexual harassment isn't a great thing. And I'd started getting them thinking about that. Yeah. Right. So then the, I guess the, call it the public narrative seems to be, at least from my read, incorrect in that it sounds like, you know, Rocky passes away, Sara takes over.

But in actual fact, as far as I can tell, you were already CEO well before that. So I was the administration manager at that point. I actually became the CEO in 2005. So while my brother was alive, when I had my son, only took six weeks off. And you know, as women, people tell us we can have everything. It's bulldust, we can't have everything. You can have things, you know, but trying to do it all is crazy. Then with my daughter, I said, I wanna take 12 months off.

And it turned out I only took four months off. 'Cause they realised that there was a gap and because when you're really, I've got an entrepreneurial mindset, but I like to balance risk and opportunity. My brother was just risk. That's the opportunity. Forget about the risk, let's go for it. So he realised he needed what I gave. But yeah, so at that point I said to him, things have to change. So in 2000 he really gave me leeway to start really systemising and really, 'cause he was growing really fast.

He was growing too fast. And I actually closed some restaurants down. And so then by that time I said to him, let's professionalise a little. And in 2005 I was appointed as a CEO. I was offered some shares in the business, a minor shareholding. And that was good. It was a little bit more equitable. 'Cause in family business you always take a pay cut. Right. And basically then I said to him, you've gotta let me. Right? And in 2005, it was just fantastic. You know, we started really innovating.

We changed the menu, we started really being purposeful about how we recruited franchisees. And it was just, we had a 10-year plan. So it was just unfortunate because I would meet with Rocky. Rocky was at Carlton at that point. And so Rocky was running Carlton on his own. So I would go and meet with him at Carlton every week and I would just go and get it done. And he'd have ideas. I'd have - ideas. - So, 2005, you're CEO, you are running the business. Rocky's running Carlton.

Imagine the growth trajectory is headed in the right - direction. - It - is. - You're also professionalising at the - same time - and we're losing some. So not everyone liked me very much. Yeah. And because what I, what I try to explain is sometimes you've gotta lose to make. It's not a numbers game. It's about sustainable profit. It is, and I say this in business to my clients, profitability is not a dirty word. And my brother had a lot of passion, but sometimes all the decisions weren't profitable.

But the essence of he wanted to get to a hundred. Mm-hmm. And I never had that dream. It's, it's not about that. It's about how do we enable business owners, business owners to get into franchising, don't wanna do it on their own. How do we allow this dream? Right. And they are profitable and everybody's happy. Right. So that was really important to me. Franchisee profitability was really important to me. And what I learned to do is two things, professionalise towards best practice, but also manage the family relationship.

But I was managing it up because my brother didn't realise I was doing this at the time. Right. But him and I though were like ying and yang. So everybody in the franchise system knew I was running the franchise. Everybody knew. Right. But obviously for me, I'm not one that I wanna be in the limelight. I was very happy with that arrangement 'cause I would just go and get things done. But in the franchising world, there I was at the forefront and I was happy to be there.

That, and that is really what I love doing is, is that kind of environment. The restaurant world, that's my brother's world. Mm-hmm. He would stay up till three in the morning drinking with the boys. And in those days, if you know the restaurant industry in Melbourne, it was till 3:00 AM. It was not, that was not me. Right. That was definitely not me. By this stage, I guess largely for the most part, you are quite capable of running this operation, even if you don't necessarily wanna be front of house, so to speak.

And then Rocky unfortunately passes. Now, I remember when you told me this story, it was almost immediately no time to grieve, gotta get on with it, which is horrible, horrible place to be. I'm curious about, not necessarily the mechanical component of that, but more, one of the things you said was, you know, it's unusual for a female to be put in the position to have to be the matriarch of such a thing. And I'm curious, what was it that all the stakeholders felt that Rocky, what was his role?

Yeah. As distinct from yours and they, why, what was the - gap? - Yeah, so, so the shareholders where people didn't know, everybody thought that Rocky and Fel owned the business, but there was shareholders in La Porchetta for many, many years. And they were all old franchisees. So they were all Italian families. There was eight of us. So while, my brother was alive, I only went to shareholders meeting every three months. And the accountant and I did all the things that you need to do with good governance and financial stability and dividends and yada, yada.

But Rocky had the relationship with the shareholders because they went out together for a drink or dinner and they discussed things. So they got involved knowing him and trusting him, and men go out with men. There's no way I can have that kind of relationship with them. 'Cause in our culture, I am not gonna be there alone going out to dinner with these guys. It's just, anyone who's Italian and listens to this gets it, right? It's different now, obviously. And so they thought, oh damn, what's gonna happen now?

But the thing that I will say to you is this. I, I don't normally give myself too many accolades, but one thing I will say about myself, the NAB, the corporate world didn't suit me a hundred percent 'cause I've got a lot of heart. However, what NAB gave me a lot of opportunity to learn and my thirst of curiosity, right? And through that I took advantage of opportunities. There was a bit of misogyny. It was a male, there was a bit of racism at NAB, I'm not gonna lie, but overall, in relation to learning, they're amazing.

And I was part of the disaster recovery team. I was a shift supervisor and basically I understood risk really, really well. That's one of my superpowers, right? And so I created a crisis plan for La Porchetta with my team. And we implemented it in November 2009. And it was an 18 month journey, which I thought was gonna be six months. But then we identified gaps in the business. And any family business should have a crisis plan. Because from a succession planning point of view, it doesn't always transition in a nice, beautiful way.

And my brother didn't transition in a good way at all. And so therefore with that crisis plan, we were actually able to in, to activate it. The way I found out my brother passed away was I got a call from The Age online at 12:00 PM, I'll never forget, on a Friday. And we, our plan said we had a script, at the reception if the media rings, only the marketing manager or the CEO can speak to the media. And we had a PR person that helped us in public relations with all the franchisees and the marketing manager was in there.

So they put the call through to me, Ms... The Age online, Ms Pantaleo, can you confirm that Mr Rocco Pantaleo has been involved in a fatal car accident? And I'm going, he's just gone to the Grand Prix. What are you talking about? And I said, I've gotta go. And I rang my sister-in-law, she wasn't answering, rang Carlton. And they said that my sister-in-law was asked to go home, tried to ring him, kept ringing my brother. And this time, and at this point I'm distressed, so I ring my niece because she was working with him during the day and my niece was at home with the police.

And then I understood. But what did the crisis plan do? Did it avoid anything? Absolutely not. But what it did do, it just helped me breathe. I rang Margot, let her know. I rang the shareholders and I went to my sister-in-law's house. I rang my husband, obviously, and by that evening, the franchisees, we said to the police, you cannot disclose that he's passed away. So we had sent a text to the franchisees and a letter to let, to confirm before it was announced to the media. So what it does for a business, it actually helps you know what to do without panicking.

And so, so yeah, so it was very, very difficult time for not just obviously the family, but you know, but we were able to breathe. Yeah. But the shareholders post that after the funeral and everything they were, and, and also family businesses, right? Mm-hmm. We're talking about family business and everything is in trust structures. Everything is complex. And so what I, my brother didn't have a will, so it was added complex complexity. 'Cause then I had to apply with my sister-in-law, joint administrators, 'cause she was in such a distressed state.

I just, we did it together and then unravel all the different structures through the accountants, through the lawyers. And, it was a mess. It was an absolute mess 'cause I'd never been involved on that side of it. So at that point is when I had to become company director. 'Cause my sister-in-law wasn't able to with, and basically restructured the company in a holdings company and unravel all the trusts. And that was probably, if you are a family business listening to this, have a look at your structure as you grow and ensure that you separate the business assets to the personal assets and as, as fast as you can, because it just creates such complexity.

Obviously there's all the mechanical stuff that you described, right? I'm imagining you're turning up to the, when the business is operating, you've described, you know, I come with the CFO and we talk to the board and we do it, but that sounds like that's the finances of the operating business. Then there's everything else and all the stuff that sits around it. Then you've talked through the, there's all the mechanical components of unpicking that and whatever. But I'm genuinely curious about that relationship side. It sounds like what your brother was holding together was not Ah, - what, under not - a mechanical structure.

Right. I underestimated that. I underestimated that. I underestimated, like my brother was a very, very good at saying, because what was happening is him and I were making decisions, right? So I would meet with him weekly. So we had a strategy meet with him weekly, and then I would implement for the franchise, right? He was at Carlton. But let's say I needed to test something, then I would go to Carlton and test things. So there's a lot more in the relationships that was unravelled after he passed away. 'Cause we had Carlton, it was base and what have you.

So then obviously the shareholders were nervous saying, now a woman's gonna run it. They're not gonna trust a woman. As much as they trusted my brother, they have a drink with my brother. They can't have a drink with me. They don't know what makes me tick. And they were very nervous. I know that my brother's co-founder would've liked his, son to be in charge, but his son was a lot younger. He owned a restaurant as well. And also the other shareholders, you know, logic prevailed, came to the realisation that I was the only one that actually understood the business and not restaurants.

Right. The franchise business. Right. And they came to the realisation that it's like, no, no, no. So we had monthly shareholders meetings. Mm-hmm. So that's what I started doing. So we had visibility, transparency, there's any hiccups along the way. 'Cause we were restructuring new companies. We had lawyers, accountants, blah, blah. But from that, did they have any questions? So that they had the ability to, to actually res, ask questions. I could respond. It was important that I was there, that I showed up. It's really about showing up and it's really about them getting to know you and what it was with them.

They just didn't know me. It was pretty simple. They only saw me as the secretary, even though I was CEO. They never saw me as the CEO when my brother was alive. Mm-hmm. They saw me as the sec, like she's the secretary with the accountant. You know, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, it sounds horrible, but I'm not upset about it because I understood - it. - Yeah. You, you are running the operation of business on paper, but Rocky is the guy running the show - for them. - Yeah.

Rock is in charge. Yeah. So I'm curious with the whole premise behind this podcast is, there's the official conversations that we have at the table and there's the, the side conversation. So I think about the only contextual point I've got is, you know, the, the Calabrian families getting together to have a conversation about business. And so how you have that and if you know this is where the numbers are at, is there any questions? What was the most difficult side conversation you had to have one-on-one with someone?

And you don't have to give the details. I'm more curious about the context and, and what was implied behind the conversation. What it was, is, what was happening is this, the franchisees started ringing some of the shareholders. 'Cause they might have known, 'cause you gotta remember they were franchisees. Initially. Right. So they knew them. Right. Franchisees knew exactly who was running the franchise. And I was out there in the franchising world representing the brand in franchising. My brother was representing the brand as he was the, that was I suppose, the biggest thing. 'Cause he was the figurehead.

Right. And so they were pretty much undermining me by doing that. And they didn't realise they were undermining me. Mm-hmm. So then some of the discussions at the meetings were, come on, are you, you know, I know their franchisees said they're paying. 'Cause I'm there for the brand for all of our success, not just one person's success. Right. And some franchisees aren't gonna like some of my decisions. So they'd go and tell them about that little decision. And I then I'd say to them, come on guys, I'm talking to you about our future strategy and direction and what reinvestment are we gonna make and making decisions about that.

And you are talking to me about a franchisee telling you that he's paying $50 too much a week. I mean, just, I can't do this. You know what I mean? And so I'd have to have that side conversation explaining to them saying, do you want profitability or don't you? But for us to be able to service franchisees, we need to be a viable business. We need to be profitable. Right. If we are not profitable, they're not gonna survive. You know, you know what I'm saying? It's, you know, everybody's gotta win here.

And I can't get stuck in the minutiae of it all, you know, but I did it in Calabrese, - not in English. - Yeah, fair enough. And I'm guessing these are folks who ran a franchise under the old model working directly with Rock. So their context is shifted somewhat. Well think this, right? This is how my brother did it and it worked. And you know what? It worked in the nineties. Would it work in 2026? I don't think so. Oh, do you have a pulse? A few hundred grand.

No worries. You got a franchise, you are in. Let's sign a contract. Okay. At the opening, he would support 'em. They'd open up, he'd be with them for two weeks and then move on. Okay. In the context of franchising and support and training, it does not work. And what you've gotta realise is in those days to get into a La Porchetta, it would probably cost you about $250,000 to get into a La Porchetta. Today, it's gonna cost you more like six, 800,000, right? So the investment is quite substantial, right?

So you've gotta understand is that as life changes and as we move on, we can't operate like we did in the nineties. So in the nineties, it's like, like I said to you earlier, there was no, I implemented point of sale system with the team. They didn't wanna take EFTPOS. I laugh because people say, oh, you know, it was a restaurants were a cash business. Really think of that. I'm running a restaurant in that way. But now fast forward and I've got all this governance around, training, best practice reports, ensuring the franchisees are doing the right thing.

You know, we'd grown to a certain size. You get customer complaints at head office, you're serving customers food, you've gotta make sure, you know, it's a different ball game. And getting them to understand that was very difficult because they didn't have that - context. - Yeah. And I'm assuming the franchise number of franchises were probably significantly smaller when the early now shareholders started. There was only 12. Yeah. There was only - 12. - So yeah, they're coming from an - entirely different context. - Totally. And - they're not in business anymore.

Correct. And there was a lot of experiments that my brother did. Like, it was like what I call following a lead and not a plan. Mm-hmm. So if I'm talking to companies today, growing, I try and create the ripple effect so that you can support the franchisees as you grow and you grow your infrastructure, you support mechanisms and what have you. In those days, I laugh now just thinking about it, but what I'm trying to say is anybody could get a site then. Right now? No. Yeah.

You gotta keep - it close. - Yeah. - I guess you, you've alluded a lot to how tradition and, and, I guess the Italian culture played out in how things were run and how things ran. And then you are pushed into a situation where you have to be the head of the family and not just manage all these other things, but manage yourself and everything else. And stepping into a, not gonna say a hostile environment, but an environment with shareholders who are, but you are not Rocky.

Do you think things would've been materially different had you not been - female? - Yes, totally. But I don't see, that's why people get horrified sometimes when I share that kind of stuff. But I didn't see any difference at NAB. It was a huge Anglo-Celtic environment and over 90% men in IT, it was exactly the same thing. It took me two to three years longer to get a promotion than a guy. It was just the culture, it was just the upbringing. It wasn't, it's a patriarchal kind of system.

Mm-hmm. It's shifting, but are we there? We're not there yet. So I don't see it any different. It's just in a different context. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But absolutely and categorically. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Did it help or that you were family, like if there had have been not you, as if you were in your role but you weren't blood, how would that have played out, do you think? Totally helped. And what also helped, I wasn't Rocky's sister who was born in Australia. I grew up in Italy and I could speak the dialect and I understood the context of course, because understanding that culture, you just don't get offended by it.

And you just deal with it. Had it been, and, and also my dad died when I was eight. My mum was an amazing, strong woman. And what she passed on to us is I realise now is utter, utter resilience. And I don't think some women or men in my position would've seen it through. Not just women. 'Cause it was very difficult times. But I was able to build trust and I was able to show them and I was able to deliver results when I was there. But of course for me, I made the decision to leave, didn't I?

So obviously it wore me down and I've got a very innovative kind of nature and I realised I can't work in an environment that doesn't innovate, doesn't, an environment where curiosity is not at the forefront. Mm-hmm. So that's why I left. 'Cause I tried to say to the shareholders, for us to see all the changes that are coming in restaurants. I saw it. We need to adapt. We need to do A, B, C, and D. And it wasn't happening fast enough for me. 'Cause you need to reinvest in that.

And I made a decision to leave. But like until then though, why did I stay so long? That's the question you should ask me. It's the obligation of family business, of letting my sister-in-law down, letting the franchisees down. And my sister owned one of the restaurants. There was so much family obligation. My brother owned one of the restaurants and then he sold the other brother. I've got another brother. Like the family obligation in family business sometimes is a lot of pressure. So I probably would've left earlier if it wasn't for that.

That's the honest truth. Hypothesis question for you. Had your brother still been around? Would La Porchetta still be around? La Porchetta - is around. - No. No. I mean, would it still be if you wouldn't, hadn't taken it over? No, if I wasn't there and my brother passed away, my La Porchetta wouldn't be there. It would've closed within, I would say within 12 - months. - And what about in 2026? Had you never joined the business and you stayed at NAB and had a whole different life, would La Porchetta still be around?

No, it wouldn't have grown. There is no way it could have survived. But the beauty was, look, I loved working with my brother at the end. I thank the Lord that I got the opportunity to work with my brother. 'Cause I didn't know my brother. 'Cause when I was five he went to Germany. Right. I did not know my brother. So it was just amazing getting to know him. And he was a wild character. Like look, he lived short life, but he lived 10 lives. Right. But along the way, I got to know my brother this way.

I go, let's write the recipes. I'm gonna come here. I'm not gonna send my staff. I'm gonna come here. This is my scale. Right. I'll work with the chefs in the kitchen with the sauces, but for the pizza, you've gotta do it. I go, because the dough balls aren't the same. So my brother would make pizzas and he goes, I'm not gonna use the scale. So he would go like this, he would grab his hand and he'd go like this. I would then weigh it. I can't tell you, we weighed it three times. 'Cause I had to create recipes.

It was exactly the same every time. So my brother didn't need a scale. He knew that dough ball was the - exactly the same size, but - they all had different menus. Was it then implied that largely you were buying the name on the door and the - reputation and - that's it, - and you ran your own - restaurant. - That's pretty much it. That's pretty much it. So my brother, you needed his vision and the hunger for business. My brother would've had to hire someone to put systems and processes.

But the reason why it worked with me is 'cause he trusted me implicitly. 'Cause I was his sister. He knew that I was gonna have his back. And that's pretty powerful. Does that make - sense? - Yeah. Did I agree with everything? No, but I had - his back. - Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so because of his entrepreneurial spirit, that's what grew the business and made it a success to where it got to. But you reckon the structures and disciplines you brought is what made it, - enduring? - Yeah.

There's no doubt. You just have to look at, just look at all the milestones. Right. One of the things I remember were a conference with franchisees. Mm-hmm. But my brother had a pretty loose mouth. And these franchisees, the new franchisees we were recruiting were very different to the older franchisees we had recruited. And in New Zealand, we had this beautiful lady and I, we are friends now, which is kind of funny 'cause I've become really good friends with the New Zealand franchisees. And she was at the front of the conference and my brother was talking to, and then I go and he used a really big word and I go, oh, you know, well Rocky actually means he's, 'cause I could see her face.

She was horrified. She's probably never heard that word in public before. And I'm like, God, Rocky actually means is, you know, so I brought also that. Okay. And I would say to my brother, okay, keep your personality. You cannot be saying that in public. Right. So I brought that professionalism. Which he didn't really care about professionalism, you know, because he just cared about that. But anyone, anyone, 'cause he would do all the practical training when he was alive. At Carlton, who trained with Rocky at first was scared of him, like the Aussies and the plenty of Aussie franchisees and New Zealanders.

But once they worked with him in the restaurant for three weeks, they fell in love with him. They got it. Yeah. You, my brother, you had to work with him to get it. He was amazing. If I understood right, was it you tried to sell the business and didn't go through? Oh, with RFG. So what actually happened is RFG expressed interest in buying our business and we had numerous shareholders meeting to discuss this. And at the end we decided to sell. And my recommendation was to sell at that time.

And basically we started going through the due diligence process with RFG and we started meeting with franchisees. And franchisees were quite panicked at RFG taking them over. 'Cause like franchisees, I don't know, somehow find stuff out. There's a whole lot of craziness at the time. But what actually happened is we did a deal. Look, Italians, you buy a business, it's this much, you buy it, you pay us, we leave, do the due diligence, look at the books, look at everything, you're happy. Good. And RFG came, sent their accountant and everything.

They go, these are the cleanest books we've ever seen. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I'm very particular about how I run finances. Right? And that was all fantastic. Everything was going really well. So they came back to us and they go, what we'd like to do, 'cause you know, some of the contracts are in overhold, meaning overhold, meaning they're in transit of getting renewed. So we wanna change the deal. We wanna say to you, we'll give you this much now, but then if anyone doesn't sign, we are gonna take this much away.

And then I've gone, I know what my shareholders are gonna say, but I'll take it to them. And I won't tell you how colourful the language was, but I went back to them and said, look, there is no way we're gonna accept that deal. Firstly, because the deal was buy in, buy out, I'll assist you. 'Cause I wasn't meant to stay back. They wanted 24 months. I said, I'll do 12 months. And then the deal is done. What if you lose the franchisees because of you, you are gonna take away an amount.

From us because you've lost the franchisees because of something you've done. And I already could see that the franchisees weren't happy with the cost of goods. 'Cause we were very, we added a very small margin to the cost of goods. We didn't wanna make money everywhere, right? Mm-hmm. And I'm like, yeah, no, the, and then they announced, they decided to pull out, because they're listed in the stock exchange. Of course they're gonna say that. But that's not what happened. Mm-hmm. The reality is we pulled out. And we didn't accept any new way of - structuring it. - That's fair enough.

I'm curious, as you had given the stakeholders you had to deal with and the situation, what did that teach you about, not the mechanics of a, of a PE exit, but more around family businesses and whether, I guess what I'm trying to understand is were the owners ready to let go and what or - no? - No. So two things it taught me. Mm-hmm. If you go down the path of selling, sell. Because it's a very ex, due diligence is very expensive. It costs a lot. So when you go down that path, just, that's one thing it taught me in hindsight.

The second thing is there was no doubt I was ready. I was ready to sell. Not because I was ready to sell. 'Cause I felt our structure was too complex. Eight shareholders agreeing on something is a nightmare. And I don't care who you are, it's very difficult. So when you grow in generations, family business, and we didn't have that governance on how you introduce family members, on how you have the family side against the business side. We didn't have all that under control. Right. Basically, there was a few shareholders and they weren't ready to sell.

So it was very easy for them, for us to pull out. Because they didn't wanna sell. But the damage that it did, the trust from the franchisees was a nightmare because they thought, oh, you are ready to sell. You're ready to go, you don't care for us anymore. Because you gotta remember very attached to these franchisees. Mm-hmm. We talk about being a family and da da, da. Oh, you're not a family anymore. Mate, they throw back their language right back at you. There's no doubt about that.

Warts and all. And it was really difficult. It became really, really difficult to rebuild trust. And what I did, though, I was pretty pragmatic about it. Next conference I hired Greg Nathan, he's one of the experts in franchising, and wrote a book called The E-Factor. He really gets franchisee mindset. And I did what you would call a like open slather, ask the franchisor anything and get a response. So we got them to ask all the questions and next day we responded. I sat there, it was myself or my team.

We would respond to anything they wanted to ask. And that really, really, that transparency really helped. It's interesting, all the dynamics of shareholders who are effectively multiple families co-invested in a single business. So you're trying to manage what, 50, a - hundred, 200 families? - It was. Some franchises have been in the system for a very long time and they felt cheated when we wanted to sell. Probably in hindsight, we didn't wanna sell. RFG approached us. Maybe that's the lesson. The lesson is follow a plan and do a succession plan so that you sell on your terms.

And maybe it wouldn't have been like that. I mean, as it turned out, La Porchetta sold to two franchisees. 'Cause it sold last year to two franchisees and they're just as passionate about the brand. And because obviously I haven't been there since 2020, but obviously COVID took a hit and what have you. And large restaurants obviously are under decline and things like that. And these two franchisees, I'm sure they're gonna grow it because they're very passionate about it. Is there anything I haven't asked you that we should ask?

Personally, I was never lucky enough to be sponsored. I was never lucky enough to be mentored. I had to fight for everything. That's not, I mean, I'm lucky I survived. Yeah. But what if I wasn't? I was, what if I'm this? 'Cause I'm not the smartest in the room, but I'm a fighter. But what if there's these clever people that are timid? Why shouldn't they succeed? So personally, stop the barriers and sponsor and mentor people, whether you're a man, a woman, I don't care who you are.

Mm-hmm. If you see talent, nurture it, and so that you elevate people to succeed. Do you know what I'm saying? I understand. Rather than putting barriers in their way. So I'll never forget we went to see the Rolling Stones with Coke at the MCG and we obviously were special guest, blah, blah. Right. And my brother made me laugh. Never forget where you come from. Right. And we are there looking over the, I love the MCG, I'm a Geelong supporter. Love the footy. Right. And we're looking over the MCG.

Fantastic. And he goes, look. I had to go, I had to come to Australia to make enough money to be able to go to Italy to watch a soccer game, right? Mm-hmm. And he was a member of Lazio, which wasn't cheap, right. And he, he knew all the Lazio team and he knew some of the presidents at Lazio. It's a Roman soccer team. Mm-hmm. Lazio anyway. And this bike, ironically, he bought, there was a young man, there was a Lazio supporter leaving the game, got killed on the road by a car.

And my brother bought his bike and we imported that. And they didn't let us import that because it's an actual active Ducati, but it was signed by the Lazio team. But we had to say it was only gonna be display, it was collectors. It took us a year to bring it here and we brought it here. And it was at Carlton as you went into Rocky's room. I don't know if you ever saw it. Right. That made me sad that she sold that. I'll be honest with you, because the story.

Anyway. And so my brother goes, and now look where we are, because the Rolling Stones were, he, my brother was avid musician and he loved the Rolling Stones, right? He goes, look at us. We just, we're here, we're having dinner and we're gonna see the Rolling Stones. And he never forgot where he came from. That's what I loved about my brother. And mind you, my brother drove a Ferrari drove, 'cause he, he always, he wasn't this arrogant about driving a Merc or he just loved cars. Right.

So, you know, and, but he never forgot his beginnings, you know, like, and he looked after people. One of the things I didn't share is about my, my brother's and my philanthropy work. 'Cause I run a charity called Moira Kelly Creating Hope Foundation. And how we met Moira is we went to a fundraiser and my brother goes, listen, I bought a table. Tell your sister. This is how he used to talk. Because, 'cause I worked with him. I was the family coordinator kind of thing. And he got a table for us.

And we went to this fundraiser and I don't know if you heard of Moira Kelly, but she brought Krishna and Trishna to Australia, the conjoined twins. Yeah. That got separated in 2009. Anyway. And it was when Ahmed and Emmanuel and Emmanuel sang at this thing, and it's like, fuck, this is like an angel. No arms, no legs, right, from Iraq. And we met him. He goes, I wanna meet her. I, okay. I go, oh, excuse me, Moira. Hi, I'm sorry. I wanna introduce my brother. 'Cause my brother Rocky and she's talking, she's, anyway, and so we went to visit the place in, Kilmore where she was running at the time.

She had founded a foundation and it was Ahmed's thing. So my brother brought his truck, we get did a barbecue. He brought his, he had a Harley with a side. So the kids were riding safety was not adhered to. But anyway, they had a ball. He couldn't believe that someone dedicated their whole life to just benevolent work. Good work, right. He goes, amazing. Anyway, so after that, like he goes, you'd never go hungry. So every month Moira would get in the bus, bring the kids there, Carlton, and they would go and eat and she would ring me anywhere if she was in Queensland, anywhere.

I'd ring the restaurant. I go, listen, Moira's coming, just feed 'em. Send us the bill. But most of the franchisees, to their credit, they didn't bill you. They did not bill us. They were amazing. And like we, we, it wasn't just about us supporting them. We did fundraiser every year for her and all of that. But it wasn't just about that. There was a cre, at Easter, we would do an Easter hunt and the franchisees would come. One of the franchisees donated, the franchisee from Traralgon, a farm.

And the little farm animals would come. It was just talking about family. We were like a family. My brother was a huge philanthropist, but not advertising it, just doing it. Even when my niece, they really got to know my niece and they loved her. And when my sister-in-law made the decision if Azzurra was leaving to close the restaurant, it was a very sad moment for us all. And we had a night there and I was just looking around and like, yeah, it's just, he just had a passion and he just amplified it.

So yeah. Lovely to meet you - both. - Likewise. Thanks for - coming. - No worries. Today's shout is the Jim Barry 2023 Cabernet Sauvignon. Interesting story behind the Barry Family Winery is that Jim and his wife Nancy, founded the winery back in 1959. Jim was the first qualified winemaker in the Clare Valley region, and then their son Peter, joined the business in 1977 and took over as managing director in 1985 and ran the business for the next 40 years. Now, Peter's kids, Tom, Sam, and Olivia have all had an established role in the business for at least 10 to 15 years.

And last year, 2025, Tom and Sam took over as I guess co-CEOs running the business. And what's really interesting about this is that the winemaker listed on the bottle is Tom. So we go from a multi-generational family wine company where the founder's name's on the front of the bottle and the third generation's name's on the back. Really good drop and highly recommend it. Cheers. Thanks for listening to My Shout. It's been amazing having you on board. If you like the show, I'd love for you to share it with your friends.

Join us on the socials, hit the follow button, and let everyone know about these great family business transition stories. Thanks for listening.